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Oct 25 13 1:38 AM

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Giant JaguarimageJaguars today are rather smallish cats if compared to lions or tigers; they usually average 60-100 kgs (132-220lbs), and the largest males (recorded from South America) were around 150 kgs (330lbs), about the size of an African lioness. In prehistoric times, however, both North and South America were home to gigantic jaguars, belonging to the same species as modern day jags (Panthera onca) but much bigger.These giant jaguars also had longer limbs and tails than jaguars living today; scientists believe that jaguars used to be open plain denizens, but that competition with American lions and other big cats forced them to adapt to more forested environments, where they developed their modern short-legged appearance.Giant prehistoric jaguars were about the size of a fully grown lion or tiger, and were probably several times stronger, with a much stronger bite.There are two subspecies of prehistoric giant jaguars known to date; Panthera onca augusta, from North America, and Panthera onca messembrina, from South America (also known as the Patagonian panther). Both of them were active during the Pleistocene period, but went extinct about 11.000 years ago, during the last Ice Age.


 milodonimageThe ever popular “sabertooth tiger”, Smilodon is one of the most famous prehistoric predators, and also one of the most formidable.There were at least three species living in both North and South America; the smallest species, Smilodon gracilis, was about the size of a modern day jaguar, while Smilodon fatalis was as big as a lion.However, the South American species Smilodon populator dwarfed both of them, weighing 300 kgs (661lbs) on average and reaching up to 500 kgs (1102lbs) when fully grown!
Smilodon was not as agile as modern day big cats, but it was immensely powerful, with thicker, stronger limbs and neck than modern day cats, and particularly long claws to hold on to prey. Its fangs could reach 30 cms (12″) in length, and were perfect for causing mortal injury to mammoths, ground sloths and possibly any large animal unlucky enough to be ambushed by this super predator.Smilodon went extinct 10,000 years ago, meaning it encountered humans, and probably hunted them once in a while. But perhaps the most amazing thing about Smilodon, is that it is the only prehistoric cat known to have caused the extinction of an entire species. The victim was another formidable predator, the saber-toothed marsupial or marsupial relative known as Thylacosmilus.This beast ruled South America for millions of years, until the sea levels became lower and North America became connected to South America.Smilodon, native to North America, made the journey to South America about 2 million years ago. Thylacosmilus disappeared practically at the same time, outcompeted, and perhaps even, hunted to extinction by the cat.

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#3 [url]

Oct 26 13 9:58 PM

About the Pleistocene jaguars

Panthera onca augusta (north America) and Panthera onca mesembrina (south America) are the largest jaguars recorded in the late Pleistocene. They bones suggest that they were 10-20% larger than modern jaguars, but the problem is: what jaguars were used for this comparison?

The largest skulls recorded for this large jaguars measure about 31 cm in length, which suggest similar sizes with modern lioness or tigress. However, the still living Pantanal jaguars from Brazil and those form Los Llanos in Venezuela, also present skulls of that size and head-body lengths of up to 170 cm (between pegs).

In this case, I think that the greatest differences was probably in the weight, more than just in body size. The largest modern jaguars reach weights of up to 130 kg empty belly and up to 160 kg fully gorged (De Almeida, 1990). The heaviest "not baited" jaguar recorded by scientists weighed 148 kg. It is possible that the Pleistocene jaguar weighed up to 160 kg empty belly, but Seymour (1993) mention that these great jaguars were no larger than those from the Pantanal, although they were slightly heavier on average.

In this case, the Pleistocene jaguars will only have a chance against the Smilodon gracilis, but not against the much larger Smilodon fatalis.

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#4 [url]

Oct 27 13 11:46 PM

I would favor the Pleistocene jaguar over smilodon gracilis  because it was larger, more muscle, and better more robust forelimbs.  Smilodon gracilis was the size of a jaguar, the Giant jaguar was the size of a modern day lion or tiger and is significantly stronger.  Not only that, but the Giant Jaguar had short robust forearms that could deal a good deal of damage to gracilis. 

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#5 [url]

Oct 28 13 11:23 PM

Interestly, I found two diferent points of view. Kurten (1963) estimated that this Pleistocene jaguars were 10-20% larger than the modern ones, with body masses between 400-500 lb (180-227 kg), exactly the same than a large modern African lion or Bengal tiger!!! However, Seymour (1993) estimated a much lower body mass, with a maximum weight of barely 130 kg.

Here is the quote of Kurten book:
https://www.google.com.gt/search?hl=es&noj=1&tbm=bks&q=%22Pleistocene+jaguar+weighed+450+to+500+pounds%22&oq=%22Pleistocene+jaguar+weighed+450+to+500+pounds%22&gs_l=serp.3...9951.9951.0.11518.1.1.0.0.0.0.141.141.0j1.1.0....0...1c.1.29.serp..1.0.0.CgIQXXiyhhY

Here is the book of Seymour:
http://books.google.com.gt/books?id=heAoqlZldWoC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=Morphological+Change+in+Quaternary+Mammals+of+North+America.&source=bl&ots=HsXrZ5sJSF&sig=N9ct3E9CLDetEJej9Uw4xlD32ts&hl=es&sa=X&ei=aMduUsOvMsHTkQeGioGgAQ&ved=0CFgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=jaguar%20kg&f=false
Sadly, the full chapter is not complete, but the two important tables are available:
1. Table 14.1, page 357.
2. Table 14.2, page 358.

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#6 [url]

Oct 29 13 2:57 AM

GuateGojira wrote:
Interestly, I found two diferent points of view. Kurten (1963) estimated that this Pleistocene jaguars were 10-20% larger than the modern ones, with body masses between 400-500 lb (180-227 kg), exactly the same than a large modern African lion or Bengal tiger!!! However, Seymour (1993) estimated a much lower body mass, with a maximum weight of barely 130 kg.

Here is the quote of Kurten book:
https://www.google.com.gt/search?hl=es&noj=1&tbm=bks&q=%22Pleistocene+jaguar+weighed+450+to+500+pounds%22&oq=%22Pleistocene+jaguar+weighed+450+to+500+pounds%22&gs_l=serp.3...9951.9951.0.11518.1.1.0.0.0.0.141.141.0j1.1.0....0...1c.1.29.serp..1.0.0.CgIQXXiyhhY

Here is the book of Seymour:
http://books.google.com.gt/books?id=heAoqlZldWoC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=Morphological+Change+in+Quaternary+Mammals+of+North+America.&source=bl&ots=HsXrZ5sJSF&sig=N9ct3E9CLDetEJej9Uw4xlD32ts&hl=es&sa=X&ei=aMduUsOvMsHTkQeGioGgAQ&ved=0CFgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=jaguar%20kg&f=false
Sadly, the full chapter is not complete, but the two important tables are available:
1. Table 14.1, page 357.
2. Table 14.2, page 358.

Guate is there any data on the bones of the Pleistocene jaguars? Maybe we can determine its real size for ourselves like we did for the Ngandong tiger.

  

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#9 [url]

Oct 31 13 2:19 AM

KingtheropodI favour smilodon, but only because I think it had a size advantage.

I'm referring to gracilis, not fatalis. Smilodon Fatalis was larger and heavier than the Giant jaguar, but gracilis was not. I would favor the Giant jaguar over gracilis because of their size and weight advantage.

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