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Feb 27 14 12:29 AM

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This topic provides the first verified measurements of a Liger, the largest on record according with Guinness (2014). Also, the topic can be used to provide a database about ligers and other cat hybrids.

 

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#2 [url]

Feb 27 14 12:31 AM

As we can see, the often exaggerated body size of the Ligers (up to 360 cm in total length) is probably just that, an exaggeration. The largest Liger ever measured and verified by Guinness was no larger than the largest captive tiger ever recorded (332 cm (tiger) against 333 cm (liger), measured in straight line).

 

It is true that the ligers are in fact larger than the largest wild tigers and lions, however captive specimens can and do match they sizes, although ligers reach more often the huge weights of up to 400 kg and are taller at the shoulders.

 

With a total length of 333 cm and a shoulder height of 125 cm, ligers are truly giants and only the largest wild tigers ever recorded reached those sizes (330 cm in total length (Mazák, 1981) and 114 cm in shoulder height (Brander, 1923)).

 

We can conclude that ligers are larger than wild lions and tigers, that captive lions and tigers can and do match they body size in extreme cases, but ligers are heavier in relation with its size, often weight up 350-400 kg, however, the largest captive tiger (Jaipur, 423 kg in 1986) was about the same weight than the largest captive liger (418.2 kg in 2013).

 

Ps.: The lions that apparently measured up to 333 cm quoted by Nowell & Jackson (1996) and Guggisberg (1975) are fake and/or incorrect, and now I have the evidence to prove it.

 

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#3 [url]

Feb 27 14 3:56 AM

Other "giant" specimens:

1. Hagenbeck liger:

The oldest and biggest of his animals was a hybrid born on the 11th May, 1897. This fine beast, now more than five years old, equals and even excels in his proportions a well-grown lion, measuring as he does from nose tip to tail 10 ft 2 inches (310 cm) in length, and standing only three inches less than 4 ft (114 cm) at the shoulder. A good big lion will weigh about 400 lbs - Mr Selous gives the length of a lion shot by himself as 9 ft 11 inches, its height as 3 ft 8 inches, and its weight as 410 lbs - and it is probably that in very exceptional cases lions may attain 450 and even 500 lbs. But the hybrid in question, weighing as it does no less than 467 lbs (212 kg), is certainly the superior of most well-grown lions, whether wild-bred or born in a menagerie.

image

Source: ANIMAL LIFE AND THE WORLD OF NATURE, "LION-TIGER HYBRIDS" (June 1902-1903) by A H Bryden.

Link: http://www.messybeast.com/genetics/hybrid-history.htm

 

2. Cubanacan from Guinness:

The Calcuta Zoo first tigon was Rudhrani, born in 1971, was mated to an Asiatic lion called Debabrata and produced 7 li-tigons in her lifetime. Some of these reached impressive sizes - a li-tigon named Cubanacan (died April 12th, 1991) was believed to weigh at least 800lb/363 kg, stood 52 inches/1.32m at the shoulder and 11.5ft/3.5 m total length (1994: GBWR "largest litigon").

image

Source: Guinness Book of World Records, 1994_Largest Li-tigon.

Link: http://www.messybeast.com/genetics/hyb-tigon.htm

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litigon

 

3. Unreliable specimens, no sources:

In 1935, four ligers from two litters were reared in the Zoological Gardens of Bloemfontein, South Africa. Three of them, a male and two females, were still living in 1953. The male weighed 340 kg (750 lb) and stood a foot and a half (45 cm) taller than a full grown male lion at the shoulder.

 

Valley of the Kings animal sanctuary in Wisconsin had a male liger named Nook who weighed around 550 kg (1,213 lb),[citation needed] and died in 2007, at 21 years old.[citation needed] Hobbs, a male liger at the Sierra Safari Zoo in Reno, Nevada, lived to almost 15 years of age before succumbing to liver failure and weighed in at 410 kilograms (900 lb).[citation needed]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger

 

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#4 [url]

Feb 27 14 4:00 AM

Commentary:

These above records provide an idea of the real size of these giants. There are other sources that quote a height of 366 cm standing in the hind legs, but this is an unreliable form to measure a cat, and there are no records of wild-captive tiger-lions for comparison.

 

The first two records were actually measured but they weights were just estimated. The first record show a specimen no larger than a wild Amur-Bengal tiger, however at 1897, a cat of that size in captivity was practically a miracle, as all the cats suffered of bad care in those Menageries. The second case is a double hybrid and presents the largest body size of ANY great cat in modern history. With a total length of 350 cm (straight line) and a shoulder height of 132 cm, this cat was of the same size than the largest Ngandong tiger (Panthera tigris soloensis) and Panthera atrox on record!!! Look his image and you will know how large these two Pleistocene cats were.

 

The third record shows three specimens that are presented in Wikipedia with NO source. The first (340 kg) and the third (410 kg) specimens presents plausible weights and don’t surpass the actual record weight of Hercules (418.2 kg).

 

Finally, the liger of AROUND 550 kg is clearly and estimation and an exaggeration. Sadly, webpages like “Ligerworld.com” not only promote the breeding of these hybrids but also propagate the myth of the existence of huge unreliable sizes, check this out:

 

a. Their weight can easily surpass 1000 pounds. Ligers can gain a length of 12 to 14 feet which makes this animal a huge beast.

Question: where is the confirmation or the specimens measured??? Were they sources are for this claim???

 

b. A liger in the 19th century was believed to be more than 1700 pounds. But this statement cannot be confirmed. However, a liger in Wisconsin had a weight of 1600 pounds. This weight is confirmed and ligerworld.com has confirmed it from authenticated sources as well.

Question: Did the keepers actually weigh this liger or it was just estimation? Why Guinness doesn’t recognize this figure??? Confirmed by a page that creat a myth about healthy ligers that that state that ligers are “ambassadors” of conservation, well, that is the WORST source that we can found.

 

c. One report suggests a liger of 1200 pounds, while another report suggests that in Wisconsin, there was a liger which weighed more than 1600 pounds.

Question: Where are those reports??? A liger of 725.7 kg??? Only in them wild and sick dreams. Why no one, even Guinness, don’t knew about this cat??? Why only now than that liger is dead, they present this weight that can’t be confirmed anymore???

 

Source: http://www.ligerworld.com/size-of-the-ligers.html

             http://www.ligerworld.com/biggest-liger-ever-recorded.html

 

Finally, Ligerworld.org present a pretty list of liger weights, however they forget to say that ALL of them are just estimations (most of them very gross), sadly some people, even a few dear cat-fans in the AVA forum choose to believe this silly estimations that are not based in any facts.

 

The famous liger Hobbs was estimated at about 900 lb (408 kg), and some people even dare to estimate him at 1000 lb (453.6 kg) but he seems no near as large and heavy as Hercules (418.2 kg).

 

Check him:

image

image

 

With a tigress, he doesn’t look excessively large:

image

 

Check this page about Hobbs: http://www.lionlamb.us/hobbs.html

 

Conclusion:

It is obvious that this pages like Ligerworld.com and some others fan-pages contribute to hence the myth of huge cats over 500 kg in captivity, besides, they promote the breeding of ligers like if they had some conservation value, with excuses like that they are “ambassadors” of the conservation or that they attract people that “donate” money for the “conservation” of tigers and lion in the wild.

 

The evidence suggests that the male liger measure between 300-333 cm in total length in straight line and can reach a height of up to 130 cm. The weight is issue is a difficult business, but at this time, the heaviest Liger actually weighed in all history reached about 420 kg. smiley: grin


All those claims of heavier and longer ligers most be treated like gross exaggerations, like the existences of white sharks of over 10 m in length or modern eagles of 5 m in wingspan. smiley: laughsmiley: roll

 

Last Edited By: GuateGojira Feb 27 14 4:08 AM. Edited 2 times.

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#6 [url]

Feb 27 14 7:58 AM

Skulls

Sadly, I found only three skulls in the web, however, I think that there is something weird here, check this:

 

1. Length 17", width 11" – 432 cm by 279 cm.

image

image

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Source: http://schreckensart.homestead.com/skullscats.html

 

2. Length 16 5/8" long by 10 7/8" wide – 422 cm by 276 cm.

image

Source: http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/cats.html

 

3. Approx. skull length 17" – about 43 cm.

image

image

Source: http://schreckensart.homestead.com/NHbigcats.html

 

I think that these three skulls are the same model, after all the three specimens almost match with them sizes. The problem is the use of inches, which like in “Bone Clones”, are only APROXIMATED sizes, not the actual size which is better measured in millimeters or centimeters.

 

Even taking the largest size, the top figure of 432 cm is just like the largest lion skull, so it is not enormously large. The figure is important and suggests, again, that the “large” size of the liger is more on the body weight than in the body size itself. Sadly, as we don’t know the actual size of the previous owner, we can’t compare it with other lion-tiger specimens.

 

Kingtheropod, you contacted to the owner of the liger “Hercules” before (Dr B. Antle), maybe you can contact him again in order to ask him IF he have some liger skulls and which are them sizes.

 

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#7 [url]

Feb 27 14 8:38 AM

Ultimate comparison

Here is an image comparison between the largest liger (Hercules) and the largest captive tiger (Jaipur), actually measured according with the Records Guinness:

image

 

I scaled Joan smaller (in the body and in the head) than Moksha, but even then, the tiger Jaipur looks slightly larger than Hercules. You can make our own comparisons and you will see it. Besides, remember that some time before, Jaipur reached the huge weight of 465 kg (1,025 lb)!!!

 

It seems that these two cats are indeed the largest captive cats ever recorded. However, normally ligers are heavier than most captive tigers and lions.

 

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#9 [url]

Feb 28 14 10:31 PM

Jaipur was 332 cm long, so its head-body length was about 221 cm. Then, If we take in count that the head length-body length ratio in Amur tigers is of 4.62, the head length of Jaipur was possibly of 48 cm, just slightly smaller than that of the tiger Amur reported by Mazák. Taking in count a ratio of 1.16 for head length-skull length, the skull of Jaipur probably measured up to 42 cm. 

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GrizzlyClaws

Posts: 120 Member Since:relative

#10 [url]

Mar 1 14 12:17 AM

So his skull is also smaller than that of Baikal, but he weighed more because of being fatter.

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#11 [url]

Mar 4 14 3:15 AM

Surely not. Baikal looks of the same size than Jaipur, although much lighter in weight. Both cats have heads comparable (if not equal) to the large male "Amur" that had a head of 50 cm.

Using the wild and captive Amur tigers I estimate a skull length of about 43 cm for these three specimens, probably a little more.

So, Amur, Jaipur and Baikal had, probably, the same head length and skull size.

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#13 [url]

Mar 4 14 10:43 PM

Sometimes, skull length is not guaranty of large weights. For example, a tiger with a skull length of 381 mm weighed only 222.7 kg, while another one with a skull length of 362 mm weighed 317.5 kg (Rowland Ward, 1914). These cases most be taken as the exception, not the rule.


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#15 [url]

Mar 5 14 12:25 AM

Exactly, as even having an equally sized head, "Amur" weighed less. However, he looks healthy in comparison with "Jaipur", which is greatly obese (just like the liger "Hercules"). "Baikal", on the other hand, looks healthy even at his high weight.

 

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GrizzlyClaws

Posts: 120 Member Since:relative

#16 [url]

Mar 5 14 8:56 AM

I just found out that the tiger-clade members seem to have a higher weight correlation regarding the body mass/skull size.

For example, a tiger with 17 inches skull should regardless approach 300kg even at the lowest spectrum, while a lion with 17 inches skull can weigh considerably lower than 300kg, even than 250kg.

Last Edited By: GrizzlyClaws Mar 5 14 8:58 AM. Edited 3 times.

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#17 [url]

Mar 6 14 12:19 AM

That is true; however this can be also correlated by the fact that tigers have relative smaller skulls in comparison with lions, at the same body size.

 

However I have data of several lions with large skulls between 15-16 inches that weighed less than 200 kg, while there is not a single Bengal tiger with a skull of 15 inches that weight less than 220 kg.

 

So, in lions, a large skull is not warranty of a large weight at all.

 

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GrizzlyClaws

Posts: 120 Member Since:relative

#18 [url]

Mar 6 14 12:53 AM

A tiger with the 17 inches skull or more should have the body mass fluctuate around 300-400kg.

However, in order to achieve the similar body mass spectrum for lion/lion-clade members, its skull should grow to 19 inches or more.

With 2 inches longer skull, the lion should be able to equate tiger's body mass spectrum.

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#19 [url]

Mar 6 14 7:53 AM

Yes, it sounds plausible. The estimated skull length for the largest Ngandong tiger specimen (the femur of 480 mm) is of c.440 mm. On the other side, the longest skull ever found for Panthera atrox is of 467.5 mm. In both cases, the estimated body mass was about 350-370 kg. So it seems that tigers are heavier than lions in relation with its skull size.


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GrizzlyClaws

Posts: 120 Member Since:relative

#20 [url]

Mar 6 14 10:47 AM

The heaviest Panthera atrox specimen is 351kg with a 458mm skull, so the specimen with a 467.5mm skull actually weighs less.

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