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#21 [url]

Jan 24 14 10:55 PM

Here are some pictures from a lion capture. Tried to get the best screenshots for complete body size, comparison to people and other aspects of interest. The doctors-to-be said that they were most suprised by the overall size, low body fat and build compared to the lions they know from zoos. The wild lions are more robust and muscular to them and you can really tell, that only the strongest survive out there once you see them lying infront of you.Furthermore they were surprised of all the cuts, wounds and ticks they had on their body. Tough life out there, they said.

85436ac76b8eec4481a87e7b9a6a7bdb02709c3d3b12693632e8581871e9f07869cd262cd1dbc1eaa013650563e6e83b83e776b4986a7b60fd5f923baa2364c467f3e45784c77e3998cd7f86e0c71c7cb6616169ed8b74967bc2b19adb70c3fb3f39ccba59426f0677eb88ad7cc9bb7d80a1798f19058c9227136e4660d9ef898782763699217646b41285b2

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#23 [url]

Jan 25 14 10:09 AM

The lion of India – The essentials

I have found this relative new webpage (2011) which represent the OFFICIAL site of the Gujarat State Lion Conservation Society. Here is the full article about the lion as a species:

 

* GIR LION

 

History:

Evolution and migration of lion is connected with climatic changes. Lion is a inhabitant of open country savannah, sparse subtropical dry deciduous scrub forests and dry thorny forests.

 

The Lion like many of our wild animals is a migrant from outside the country. Entering India from the north western passes, it had spread over practically the whole of north and western part of India from Sindh to Bengal and Ganges and Indus on the north to Narmada. Before the close of the last century the Asiatic Lion had become extinct from its range except Gir. The nawab of Junagadh provided adequate protection to Lions in Gir and prohibited hunting form 1911.

 

Lions deserted the Barda and Alech Hills in later half of nineteenth century. Lions started appearing in Mitiyala forests from 1917 onwards. Lions were last seen in the Girnar Hills till 1963. They were again recorded in the region in the 1974 census.

 

Fact & Figures:

·         Average body size of a male lion is 262 cm long and that of a lioness is 245 cm. Average weight 160 kg and 125 kg for lion and lionesses respectively.

 

·         Adult lions has tawny colour. Lions have moderate mane between ears. It develops rapidly at the age of two years. The coat thickness changes with seasons.

 

·         The temperament of lions is cool and tolerant to human presence but they may attack if humans venture too close.

 

·         Territorial advertisement by roaring, scrapping and spraying is done by adult males. It is only member of cat family which is truly gregarious.

 

·         Lions hunt together and it has been observed that a group lions hunting together have a higher chance of success than a solitary lion hunt due to division of labour during hunting, protecting and guarding while eating.

 

·         The largest tenure of males within a pride is six years. The whiskers, special sensory hairs are used as alternative sensory device in the dark.

 

·         Lions do not have a very strong sense of smell. However sense of hearing is very strong. Sense of sight is exceptionally acute especially in detecting the slightest movement.

 

·         Vocalisation like growling, snarling, mewing, grunting and roaring are some of the usual calls.

 

·         The roar of the male lion can be heard for miles around. The main purpose is to claim exclusive rights over a territory. Life span is about 14 to 15 years in the wild.

 

Population Dynamics:

The lion population estimation in the past compiled from various source are as follows

 

Year

Authority

Numbers

1880

Col. Watson

About 12 (E)

1893

The then Junagadh State

About 31 (E)

1905

Maj. Carnegy

About 60 to 70 (E)

1905

The then Junagadh state

About 100 (E)

1913

Mr. Wrangler

Not more than 20 (E)

1920

Mr P R Cadel

About 50(E)

1920

Mr Ratnagar

At least 100 (E)


Population estimation from census

Year

Numbers

1968

177

1974

180

1979

205

1985

239

1990

284

1995

304

2001

329

2005

359±10

2010

411


The 2010 census said that Gir forests, the last abode of the Asiatic lion, have a total of 411 lions which includes 77 cubs, 120 males, 185 lionesses and 29 lions whose sex could not be ascertained.

 

Reproduction and Mortality:

There is no rigidly fixed breeding season in Lions. Many lions mate between Oct to December and young ones produced around January to march. Birth of cubs shows two peaks in winters and monsoon. Litter size recorded in Gir is between 1 to 4 (average 2.6). Cub survival upto recruitment or the sub-adult stage was estimated to be 56%. Cub mortality is mainly due to starvation. Predation as a cause of mortality is also recorded in Gir. Cubs associate closely with their mother until she has another litter or they are two years old. Learning how to hunt begins at an early age. Lionesses reach maturity at the age of 4 while male require some more months to reach sexual maturity.

 

Food Pattern:

About 75 % of food of lions comes from predation of domestic livestock and 25 % from wild ungulates (Joslin, 1969). As per studies conducted later, this percentage changed to 25 % livestock and 75 % of wild ungulates (Ravi Chellam, 1990). The ranking for prey species for lion are Chital, buffalo, sambar, cattle, Nilgai, wild boar, peafowl, camel, langur, chowsingha. Studies there after shows that livestock comprise about 20 % of the lions diet.

 

Migration:

Recent years have witnessed lions moving outside sanctuary limits. Prides of lions are seen to occupy territories in Girnar, Mitiyala, grasslands in Maliya, Jesar and Palitana and coastal forests permanently. Some of the reasons for migration of lions are:

 

·         Good conservation efforts in Gir resulting in a continuous flow of young individual lions looking to rehabit new areas.

 

·         New areas having good potential as lion habitat with respect to availability of prey (wild ungulates and feral cattle) and shelter.

 

·         Unhindered and safe movement of lions from Gir and to these locations because of the topography, cropping pattern and land use.

 

·         Attitude of the local people which is highly conservation oriented, whereby they feel pride in the fact that lions have inhabited their land.

 

Territoriality and Home Range:

Lions are territorial predator, the proof of which is ferocious fights that takes place between males to establish supremacy in their territories. Lions pride has a well defined home range within which pride members remain confined. The lions squirt urine mixed with scents from anal glands through which it delineates its home range.

 

In a study by the Wild life Institute of India Dehradun it, the average territory of males lions in Gir has been found out to be 89 (+/-) 48 sq km and that of a female lion 24 (+/- ) 7.8 sq km. Season affects home range in lions. Lions are social animals and live and hunt in family groups. Group size varies with sex and age. For females it is 1-11 (averaging 1.3 excluding cubs) and for male it is 1-5 (averaging 1.4). Male lions spent 73-85 % of their time resting. However, territorial males have been found to spend 63 % of their active time in territorial advertisement indicating that the territory defense was the most important activity for them.

 

Source of the data: http://www.gujaratlion.com/history-evolution.htm

Check the links for each subtitle.

 

Hope you like this summary.

 

Greetings. smiley: smile

 

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#24 [url]

Jan 30 14 2:32 AM

Peter H. Capstick

From peter:

Capstick was a professional hunter in Africa. Southern parts of Africa, to be more precise. Born in the US, he left for Africa when he could. He had quite a reputation and wrote a number of books on his experiences. On lions, he was as experienced as they come.

I ordered most of his books. Safari Press, Huntington Beach. Have a look at what they have. Interesting. The pages below are from this book:


Capstick1_zps0df5fcb3.jpg


Here's his experience on size. Very close to what others thought:


Captstick2_zpsd1748db1.jpg


Capstick3_zpsbe667ede.jpg


A particularly large male lion tapes about nine feet straight (274,3 cm.), stands 38-42 inches at the shoulder (96,5-106,7 cm.) and weighs about 400 pounds (181,4 kg.). In another book, he gave details of two unusually big male lions he shot. They taped 9.1 straight and might have been close to 500 pounds (not weighed, but his estimate is good enough for me). He knew about records of larger animals, but had severe doubts as to the reliability of these records. Same here.

Remember Capstick measured lions himself in the correct way. He was as experienced as they come and he hunted in those parts of Africa which have the largest regional types. His conclusions are very close to those of Stevenson-Hamilton (Warden of Kruger about a century ago) and other reliable hunters. Biologists, many decades later, confirmed Capstick's findings. The Kruger lions sample probably is the best. Adult males averaged 187,5 kg. (413-414 pounds) and the heaviest scaled 225 kg. (496 pounds). Anything over is so remarkable, one would want to see all details.

Trying to downgrade lions here? No. I am as interested in lions as you. One of the aims is to find out about the real size of big cats. That's why I measure captive animals myself and why I collect reliable information on wild animals. The information I have points towards 8.6-9.0 and 380-420 pounds for an average male of a large regional type. Male Crater lions, at about 212 kg. (468 pounds), probably are the heaviest, but I don't think they are longer or taller than Kruger and Etosha lions. They are more robust. It could be the prey-rich Crater is the best explanation, meaning they are able to get to their full potential. In wild male lions, full potential seems to be in robustness, not length. 

Exceptional animals can be found anywhere. Some will get to 500 pounds and over, but animals of that size are few and far between. The experience I have in captive animals suggests big animals usually are not longer or taller, but more robust. Of the male lions I measured, the shortest also was the heaviest. Couldn't weigh him, but he almost compared to the heaviest captive Amur tigers I measured. This tiger was 211-215 kg. (465-475 pounds roughly) when he was transported to China a few years after I measured him. At 287 cm. (9.5) in total length straight, he was almost 9 inches longer than the big lion, who taped 265 cm. in total length (just over 8.8). The differences were in head and body (tiger longer), chest (lion bigger) and the fore-arms (tiger).  

Compared to most tigers, lions are a bit shorter, but more robust: more weight for their length. At the level of subspecies, wild Indian tigers are the exception to the general rule in that they are long, tall and robust. Wild male Amur tigers seem to compare to lions from southern parts of Africa for (relative) robustness, but their weight seems to be in the head and arms, whereas lions seem to have larger chests and skulls. The longest and heaviest wild big cats are Indian and Amur tigers, but some lions from southern parts of Africa almost compare. The main difference is in the averages: there are more large tigers than large lions.     

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#25 [url]

Jan 30 14 6:54 AM

Fake lion of 267 kg from Asad

Did someone remember how many times the idiot of Asad quotes the lion of 267 kg from Wroe??? Well, check this out:

 

From Mushiya:

 

As much as I hate to burst your bubble, it should be pointed out that the 267kg lion in your list was not in existence.

 

The weight figure you quoted, if I got it right, is from McHenry et al.’s paper "Supermodeled sabercat ...", for which the Supporting Information can be viewed here:

Table 1. Skull measurements and body mass estimates for the specimens used in this study

 

TSL, mm

BSL, mm

SWZ, mm

ML, mm

ML: BSL

Hc, mm

Fc, mm

BoM, kg

P. leo CN6043

325

 

 

 

 

 

 

170

P. leo AM M1779

378

332

261

225

0.68

 

 

267

S. fatalis LACM PMS 1-1

 

310

 

 

 

128

110

283

S. fatalis AM F45779

 

289

195

174

0.60

 

 

229

TSL, total skull length (premaxilla-lamboid); BSL, basal skull length (premaxillae-occipital condyles); SWZ, skull width at zygoma, maximum width of zygomatic arches; ML, mandible length (anterior dentary to condyle); Hc, minimum mid-shaft circumference humerus; Fc, minimum mid-shaft circumference femur; BoM, body mass.

Source: http://www.pnas.org/content/104/41/16010/suppl/DC1

 

As detailed in Table 1 and SI Text, an estimated body weight of 267kg for P. leo AM M1579 is derived from the actual body weight of 170kg for P. leo CN6043 based on an allometric relationship between body weight and skull length in the species.

 

However, a glaring error is committed by the authors - they confuse basal skull length (BSL, measured from premaxillae to occipital condyles) with total skull length (TSL, measured from premaxilla to lamboid) for P. leo CN6043, which means that 325mm should have been the lion`s basal skull length instead of its total skull length and hence an overestimated body mass for P. leo AM M1579 although it is described by Wroe as a "particularly large" specimen.

 

Actual body weights and cranial measurements for CN6043 and CN7321 (as given below) are listed in Table 5 of Christiansen and Adolfssen`s article "Osteology and ecology of Megantereon cultridens SE311...", where skull length is specified as "length of skull from premaxilla to the occipital condyles".

 

Panthera leo CN6043

BSL 325.0mm

BM  170kg

 

Panthera leo CN7321

BSL 359.7mm

BM  203kg

 

By comparison, P. leo AM M1579 has a BSL at 332mm, indicating a skull size somewhat larger than that of CN6043 but quite a bit smaller than that of CN7321. Thus, its actual body mass could be somewhere between 170 and 203kg, and may have been much closer to the bottom end than the top end thereof.

 

As a result, McHenry et al.`s weight estimate of 267kg for P. leo AM M1579 was clearly wrong. Instead, a weight of 180-190kg would seem more realistic.

 

In addition to what has been mentioned above, here is another perfect example showing the relationship between actual body size and skull length in P. leo.

“A technique used to measure the large African predators”

 

http://www.wildliferanching.com/content/technique-used-measure-large-african-predators

 

"The ratio of the width of the skull [i.e. a straight line between the zygions
(most outer points of the zygomatic arches)] to the length of the skull [i.e. a
straight line from the bases of the incisors (prosthion, most anterior point of
the skull) to the inion (most posterior point of the skull)] of the five specimens
was calculated from the data in Table I, namely: 1:1.55, 1:1.51, 1:1.53, 1:1.11
and 1:1.38."

 

An adult male lion(ALPRU00047) weighing 177.5kg has a skull length of 376mm, just 2mm shorter than that of AM M1579 which is measured at 378mm.

 

I would be surprised if you should tell me there was someone with a modicum of knowledge about big cat anatomy who believed that a negligible 2mm difference in total skull length could lead to a huge 89.5kg difference in body weight for lions.

 

Hope it helps.smiley: smile

 

Pckts, KingT or any other poster that still participate in the old AVA forum, please crash this information on Asad's face please. I can’t even read what is now written the several pages of that old place. They are full of idiocies and lies of hard-core-lion-fans. smiley: mad

 

Last Edited By: GuateGojira Jan 30 14 12:45 PM. Edited 1 time.

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Deinotherium

Posts: 14 Member Since:relative

#27 [url]

Feb 6 14 2:05 PM

It appears that the lions of Waza national park in Cameroon may not be so small after all. These three males and four females were collared and measured in 2007-2008.

5e86ba8f8c5494ee7e3376a12df5e0fe98257ec9
196kg male


ec6c990a304e251f24a49d40a786c9177e3e538b
186kg male


a1ac3fadcbef7609256ee0272edda3cc7dd99efd
160kg male


So we have three males averaging 181kg, while the biggest one of 196kg is comparable to big lions anywhere else, the next one at 186kg is also of a considerable size (but with a very small neck, strangely)

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Deinotherium

Posts: 14 Member Since:relative

#29 [url]

Feb 6 14 2:23 PM

And here is the large male of 196kg

8bcf57ee3d6d55fb19f5939e6d224f4a20a4dd34
210c9aeef01f3a2921d430769925bc315d607cc6

These lions were all in very good health, so it shows that the specimens of this area aren't genetically small and given the right conditions can be as large as lions in any other area.

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#30 [url]

Feb 6 14 8:00 PM

Deinotherium wrote:
A 235kg male lion from the Serengeti, named Puyol
Serengeti-Lion-Project-Report-December-2
Serengeti-Lion-Project-Report-December-2
Serengeti-Lion-Project-Report-December-2


Wow, thank you very much for the information Deinotherium. A lion of 235 kg is certainly a record in East Africa. I surely will include him in my table. However, is important to mention this, from the same page that you post the figure:

http://www.africadreamsafaris.com/blog/?p=18361

 

From me you won’t hear about your favorite prides, instead I’ll give you some tales from my work in neighboring Ngorongoro. Since late 2010 I’m fully engaged in lion research and conservation in the Ngorongoro Conservation Area (NCA). I continue the regular monitoring of the easily seen lions in the Crater and in the Ndutu/Masek area – this is the easy task. Much more challenging is learning about the elusive lions that reside in the Maasai inhabited parts of Ngorongoro. I work closely with the local communities, and have currently six local Maasai employed to assist gathering lion observation data, as well as data on predators’ impact on the pastoralist Maasai population. Much could be told about the work here, but for this report I wanted to acquaint you with Puyol and his mates…

 

* So this is the second Ngorongoro male lion whose weight is available in literature (the other was a young male of 146 kg, if I remember correctly).

 

They were the two gorgeous blond-maned nomadic males that we’d first seen and identified in May 2012. I gave Hamisi (driver guide at Ndutu lodge and local lion expert, a.k.a. Kaka Simba) the honorable task to name them. Being a football (soccer) fan, Hamisi named them Puyol and Ramos – defenders of the Barcelona football team – and we gained hopes they may become good lion pride defenders in the years to come. We estimate Puyol and Ramos to be born in 2008. It is likely they are brothers or cousins, but being just two they could also be two solitary, unrelated nomads that have hooked up for life. Their origin is unknown to us, although I’m hoping we can find it out by analyzing genetic samples from them.

 

* As this male lions born in 2008, than at the moment of its capture they are already full grown adults with 5 years at 2013.

 

Puyol immobilized and here weighed by Koley, Mudi, Ingela, Roimen and Julius. Puyol is some of the largest lion I’ve ever seen; his tail base as thick as my arm, and he weighs (if we can trust a non-perfect scale) around 235 kg. Mind you, perhaps 25% of that was his latest large meal.

 

The lion was large, but its weight is inflated by its last meal. They estimate a 25% off, which gives a result of only 176 kg!!! I am not as biased as some hard-core-lion-fans that simple diminish the weight of full of beef tigers like Yamaguchi has done, whith out taking in count the logic that lions and tigers, even it they eat heavily, they rarely “gorge” themselves in a single meal. For the contrary, let’s see the real data:

 

Schaller stated that the maximum food intake recorded by him in the Serengeti was of 33 kg, with an average meal been of up to 10 kg (Schaller, 1972). However, Craig Packer estate this:

“A male can eat 43 kg in a day; a female may eat over 25 kg. But their average intake is about 8–9 kg per day.”

Source: http://www.cbs.umn.edu/lionresearch/faq

 

So, a male African lion can eat from 33 to 43 kg in a single day as a maximum. Taking this in count, the male of 235 kg could weight as low as 192 – 202 kg IF was gorged. Now, if they have only a normal feed, the empty belly weight could be of 225 kg in the best case.

 

The point is that the figure of 235 kg is certainly inflated by food intake and the article mentions that probably 25% of this figure was of “his latest large meal”, which means that it was gorged. So, this lion probably weighed no more than 200-210 kg empty, probably up to 220 kg in the very best case.

 

Even with all this, the record deserves to be included in my table, although with a foot-page note mentioning that it was gorged at the moment of the capture.

 


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#31 [url]

Feb 6 14 8:19 PM

Deinotherium wrote:
And here is the large male of 196kg
8bcf57ee3d6d55fb19f5939e6d224f4a20a4dd34
210c9aeef01f3a2921d430769925bc315d607cc6

These lions were all in very good health, so it shows that the specimens of this area aren't genetically small and given the right conditions can be as large as lions in any other area.

Interesting, the females of Waza are all very light in weight, while the males are of the same weight than those of other parts of Africa.

 

So, the old average of c.155 kg (n=5) is no longer accurate for this population, as with these new three weights of 196, 186 and 160 kg, the new average will be of c.170 kg, just about the same as the males in East Africa.

 

The lion of 196 kg is very large, with a shoulder height of 111 cm, a chest girth of 130 cm and a total length of 286 cm, which suggest a head-body of about 190 cm, this dimensions are similar to the largest lion recorded by Dr Hu Berry in Etosha NP (SH-106 cm; chest-139 cm; HB-191 cm).

 

Fascinating information, I will use it to actualize my tables about lions. However, we must take in count that this lions are not “African” lions. I mean, the genetic analysis suggest that the lions in West Africa are descendents of a invasion wave from the Asian lions that entered and re-colonized the North and West of Africa in the late Pleistocene (Bertola et al., 2012).  That’s why the Indian, Barbary and West African lions are genetic “twins” and should be classified as Panthera leo leo, while all the Sub-Saharan lions should be classified as Panthera leo melanochaita, divided in two clades: the East African and the Southern African (Dubach et al., 2013).

 

As we don’t have a single reliable weight of the Barbary lions, we can safely conclude that the heaviest “Asian-Barbary-West African” lion on record is of 196 kg (Waza), followed by the Indian record of 190 kg (Gir). However it will be interesting to see if the first weight includes stomach content, after all, the Gir lions were baited and the figures includes stomach content.

 



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#32 [url]

Feb 6 14 8:37 PM

Deinotherium wrote:
It appears that the lions of Waza national park in Cameroon may not be so small after all. These three males and four females were collared and measured in 2007-2008.
5e86ba8f8c5494ee7e3376a12df5e0fe98257ec9

Mmmmmmm, my question was answered, check the datasheet:

 

It says “Very good, fat” and latter the Remarks say “Had a fresh kill, kob”

 

It seems that this 196 kg lion do have some stomach content. How much? We can’t know, but if this lions eat as much as the Indian ones, we need to see this:

image

 

This document state that captive Indian lions eat 5% of they own weight (leopards up to 10%). Using this parameter, the large Waza lion probably weighed 186 kg "empty belly". This is still a very high value for the region.

 

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#33 [url]

Feb 6 14 10:42 PM

Good work guys!

Guate, so in your update of East Africa lion body weight table, are you going to include the gorged figure of 235 kg in the final average or no? I agree with you that 25% off is probably not right because the estimate is not from a professional.

I also recommend including the weight from Crater of 146 kg from the link below... Plus the 420 lb figure I showed earlier :)

http://www.panthera.org/node/3388

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#34 [url]

Feb 6 14 11:20 PM

Check this out:

 

However, perhaps because his ten-year old father was the only male siring cubs within the Ndutu region’s three prides (the Thin, Masek and Big Marsh prides), Young Tom was accepted by the Thin pride. Once he reached physical and sexual maturity, Young Tom joined his father in defending and siring cubs within the three prides, including seven cubs born to the Masek pride in early 2012.

 

In the months ahead, the Serengeti Lion Project team will continue to monitor the activities of Young Tom, now nearly four years old, and will collar and track five additional lions in the region to learn more about their range use and interactions with local pastoralists.

 

Source: http://www.panthera.org/node/3388

 

This is enough evidence to show that “Young Tom” at 146 kg is a full grow adult, over 3 years old, from the Crater. This is the parameter used by scientist to achieve the adulthood of a cat.

 

I will include him in the table together with the 235 kg lion (gorged) also from the Crater and your male specimen of 190.5 kg from Kenya.

 

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#35 [url]

Feb 6 14 11:55 PM

Why the African lion DON’T had a height of 120 cm???

Well, here is the answer:

image

 

As you can see, scientists that measure lions take the length from the shoulder to the tip of the paw!!! That’s NOT a standing height, however, there is a shame that most documents, web-pages and even scientific papers still quote the silly number of 120 cm or over for the height of lions. smiley: mad

 

Check this also:

image

image

Source: Smuts et al., 1980.

 

This is the original scientific source that states the height of over 120 cm for the male lion. However, you can see in the document that he directly state that this is NOT the standing height.

 

The tallest lion measured 114 cm (Pitman, 1942) but even this record is questionable as it came from a second hand source. The largest captive lion named “Simba”, which was a real giant, only measured 112 cm in standing height.

 

It is possible that the other figures, like those of Waza lions (up to 111 cm), Amboseli (up to 110 cm) and Tanzania (up to 110 cm) were taken in the same manner, but we need evidence of that. In this case, I prefer to quote the figures of Stevenson-Hamilton (1947) and Meinertzhagen (1938), who directly stated the method used (between pegs) and from where-to-where they measure the height (Form shoulder to wrist). They results show that the tallest lion reached up to 109 cm.

 

Whatever we want to believe, the accurately measured specimens between pegs, shows that the maximum standing height for the male lion is of 112 to 114 cm at the most. Tigers also reach this height, but normally they are slightly lower at the shoulders. Heights of up to 120 cm belong only to the Pleistocene specimens.

 

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#36 [url]

Feb 7 14 3:08 AM

Kingtheropod wrote:
Found new measurement of a African lion.

This one is from a huge lion, but its arm is rather small. From the book After Big Game: The Story of an African Holiday - Page 173 By R. S. Meikle, ‎Mrs. M. E. Meikle 1917

Measurements:
Height - 40 inches
Total length - 8 feet 9 inches
Girth - 57 inches
Forearm girth - 16 inches

https://archive.org/stream/afterbiggamestor00meik#page/172/mode/2up

99d165784bce6d82640a4b0d1928e2d906740ed6 

About this book, I found that contain records of five lions and a few rhinos from Uganda, which will classified all his big cats in the East African clade.

 

The author in page 161-163 state all the methods that he used to measure lions, and it is clear that he measured them between pegs (between spears, with his words). So, I will include all this records in my new table of the East African lions. About the shoulder height, this was taken from the shoulder to the paw, with the extended arm, so this is not the real standing height and I will post them here just for information and not included in my tables, except to two that are identified as “to the paw”, these seems reliable.

 

Sadly, he doesn’t give any weight, but even then, this large lion of 145 cm in chest girth was probably a massive one, or a gorged one with an inflated abdominal area. However, we can’t dismiss this girth, as smaller Indian lions has been correctly measured and produced larger chest girths with similar body lengths.

 

Here are all his lions:

 

* Males:

2668 mm length, 1092 mm height (1016 mm to the paw), chest 1448 mm – Pg. 173.

2795 mm length – Pg. 192.

2744+ mm length, 1118 height to the paw, chest 1347 mm – Pg. 244.

 

* Females:

2541 mm length, 1016 mm height – Pg. 161.

2414 mm length, 991 mm height – Pg. 161.

 

He stated that most of the lion tails measure about 3 ft, but sadly, none of his records has its actual tail length.

 ==========================================================================

Edit: Here is an image of a Uganda lion from the Queen Elizabeth NP:

image

 

Magnificent animal, don’t you think? smiley: happy

 

Last Edited By: GuateGojira Feb 7 14 7:47 AM. Edited 2 times.

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#37 [url]

Feb 7 14 3:33 AM

Deinotherium wrote:
And here is the large male of 196kg
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These lions were all in very good health, so it shows that the specimens of this area aren't genetically small and given the right conditions can be as large as lions in any other area.

I think this is the same lion:

image

 

As we can see, the shoulder height was over curves, but we can’t see it is up to the writs or up to the tip of the paw. The shoulder height of 111 cm most be used with caution.

 

By the way, I was wrong with the Waza lions; the first average of the males was of 145 kg based in four specimens. Check this out:

image

The average for the females, with the new four specimens of Deinotherium, will be of 98.5 kg (n=7).

 

Now with these new three males (196-186-160 kg), I calculate a new average of 163 kg (n=7; includes stomach content in some specimens) for the male lions of Waza. This figure is about the same than the average of the modern Indian lion, check this out:

Average body size of a male lion is 262 cm long and that of a lioness is 245 cm. Average weight 160 kg and 125 kg for lion and lionesses respectively.

Source: http://www.gujaratlion.com/features-al.htm

 

These figures are official (Gujarat State Lion Conservation Society), and can be corroborated with all the available records posted before by peter and me.

 

It seems that the subspecies Panthera leo leo (Indian, Barbary, West Africa; Dubach et al., 2013) had an average of about 160 kg and a probably maximum weight of up to 190 kg empty belly.

 


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Deinotherium

Posts: 14 Member Since:relative

#39 [url]

Feb 7 14 6:59 AM

Guate, all measurements of shoulder height for lions and tigers in the wild is taken along the body (it has to be). I'm sure what point you're trying to make with that picture.

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#40 [url]

Feb 7 14 7:25 AM

Deinotherium wrote:
Guate, all measurements of shoulder height for lions and tigers in the wild is taken along the body (it has to be). I'm sure what point you're trying to make with that picture.

In a documentary of National Geographic (Tigers in the Snow, I think), the scientists that measured a female Amur tigress measured the shoulder height by parts, first from the wrist to the elbow, later from the elbow to the final part of the humerus and finally from there to the upper part of the shoulder.

 

So, not all the scientists measure in the same way. However check that even when I mentioned that the height of 111 cm of the Waza lion most be used with caution, I did not say that it was unreliable. In fact, I will quote it in the new tables. I have found that any lion of up to 112 cm is very reliable (it has been proved) but only when the body size correspond to it. The length of 286 cm fit very well. I don’t know how the Waza lions were measured, but I guess that they were taken in straight line.

 

As far I know, Dr Sunquist and Dr Karanth did not measured the height of them tigers. I don’t know if Dr Chundawat did it, but at the end, there is not a single shoulder height of wild Bengal tigers in scientific literature.

 

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